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Grass or Hay

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mffarmall
Member

Nov 26, 2005, 7:46 PM

Post #1 of 27 (2242 views)
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Grass or Hay	Can't Post

I have a thoroughbred, she’s about 1200 ibs, 18 hands, great personality. I was told by her previous owner that she needed a grain, two cups in the morning and night and about 4 flakes of hay each feeding. So she goes through about a bail every four days. She never got Alfalfa. Old owner said that Alfalfa is high in nitraites and will break down their kidneys and it can cause them to get backed up.

She has a fast met, so I have the amount of feed down. But I have been told that 1-3rd cut Alfalfa is good for a horse mixed with grass and that it can be used to cut down on her grain. She's 7 years old. I like to use Alfalfa because its not expensive. And ideas.

JimHess
Silver Member

Nov 26, 2005, 10:15 PM

Post #2 of 27 (2239 views)
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Re: [mffarmall] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will reply, but we've never used alfalfa. It's not very available in our area, and we were told it's "rich". We use regular grass hay, and in the size bales we use, we figure rule of thumb about a half a bale a day per horse, unless they're out on pasture. We like to give them a flake or so at a time, and let them clean it up, rather than a whole bunch at once. And unless they're working hard, we don't give them all that much grain. I give them a handful about 4 times a day when they're idling. If they have good pasture and/or good hay they scarcely need grain if they're not working. We were told by the Vet that the soils in our area are deficient in selenium, so we add a selenium and vitamin E supplement to their grain daily. And speaking of supplements, if you ask 10 horse people about supplements you'll get 10 different answers. Everybody has their favorite that they think will give their horse that extra edge. The one other thing that we add to their grain in the summer is Equitrol. It's a feed-through fly control product. We need all the help we can get to keep the flies down. Guess this didn't really answer your question, just tells you what somebody else is doing.

-Jim

Mark4510
Silver Member

Nov 28, 2005, 4:59 PM

Post #3 of 27 (2224 views)
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Re: [mffarmall] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Mffarmall,
From my perspective, if you are trying to reduce feeding costs and keep you horses weight and nutrition up, I would look at feeding a good oat/Alfalfa. When our horses are being worked we will feed the first two feedings as alfalfa and the third as oat.

I agree with Jim that it’s better to feed smaller amounts more frequently rather than 2 really large feedings. I would shy away from determining your horses feed program by trying to calculate what cutting the alfalfa is. Certainly there are some generalities but I would not hang my hat on that.

There are many good feeding resources. I think Nutrena provides one of the best. http://www.nutrenaworld.com/ I think they may even offer a free analysis. They used to but not sure if they still do.

Regards,
Mark

mffarmall
Member

Nov 30, 2005, 12:50 AM

Post #4 of 27 (2214 views)
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Re: [Mark4510] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank you for the information. Mostly what I wanted to know is if Alfalfa is bad for horses. And I will take that It's good for horses but it's not the only food needed for them. I just wanted to know if it was high in nitrates and could bind them up (feeding bailed Alfalfa) and cause kidney problem?

Thanks for the help

lkvaughan
Member

Nov 30, 2005, 2:20 PM

Post #5 of 27 (2210 views)
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Re: [mffarmall] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

i have not heard about alfalfa having high nitrates and being bad for horses
corn, sorgum, and silage have high nitrates and can cause what is known as brown blood disease- which is fatal (look under the norwood maples thread for some good lists of toxic plants)

the reason you do not want to feed only alfalfa is that it has an imballance in the calcium/ phosphorus ratios- this can be a praticular problem in growing horses... that being said it is an excellent source of protein- like others have said a mix of grass and alfalfa is a good forage source.... see www.safergrass.org for a good discussion on hay/ grass- particularly for overweight horses

kelly

justmartha
Member

Nov 30, 2005, 6:59 PM

Post #6 of 27 (2198 views)
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Re: [lkvaughan] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Good reply. I have occasionally had problems with horses not eating oat hay that was cut too green and was told that it was not very tasty and was also high in nitrates. My current regimen for "at-home" horses (those not on pasture) is to feed almost all alfalfa and only a bit of grass hay, but it is a matter of economics and availability. I live next to an alfalfa farm. I have to drive 20 miles for grass hay, and it costs more to buy! Fortunately, I can switch my horses to pasture occasionally - I know that long-term alfalfa use supposedly causes other problems in some horses.

In Reply To

Martha in NM
http://www.valverdemorgans.com

mffarmall
Member

Dec 1, 2005, 1:45 PM

Post #7 of 27 (2187 views)
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Re: [justmartha] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank you for the information. This has been a useful discussion. I am planning on talking with my vet about doing this for a feeding schedule. Please look at over and give me some ideas. Gracie is 8 1100LBS and has problems keeping weight on through the winter.

Gracie’s Regiment

Feeding:

Grass Hay
Alfalfa Hay
Mineral Salt Block
Vitamin liquid or treat
Vegetable Oil

Mornings
1 flake Alfalfa
1 flake Hay
½ cup Oil

Night
2 flakes Alfalfa
2 flakes Grass
Vitamin ½ once

Exercise:

1 hour per week on rope
1 hour riding

Post
½ hour two times a week on rope (unless able to ride more then an hour)
½ hour outside of arena and ½ hour inside

justmartha
Member

Dec 1, 2005, 5:25 PM

Post #8 of 27 (2180 views)
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Re: [mffarmall] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

As always, hay flakes vary in size and weight - make sure she's getting somewhere between 17-24 pounds hay per day (or a little more if she is active). 18 HH is very tall - is she really that tall? Anyway, the basic regimen looks good although I have no idea what the exercise on a rope and the post thing mean? If she has trouble keeping her weight on in the winter, perhaps a blanket would also be beneficial- she's burning more calories in winter to keep warm, it sounds to me. There are also a ton of new feeds out designed to add calories & nutrition without adding the carbohydrates that can cause problems in some horses, but I don't know much about them. My horses pretty much get 3 flakes of alfalfa or 2 flakes of that and 2 of grass. But they are Morgan air ferns.

All that being said, some horses just run thin, and thin isn't a bad thing, according to my vet. He tells me more horses these days have problems with overweight issues, just like humans in this country. As long as her ribbiness is normal for her, it's probably acceptable. Your vet can give you some guidance here.

In Reply To

Thank you for the information. This has been a useful discussion. I am planning on talking with my vet about doing this for a feeding schedule. Please look at over and give me some ideas. Gracie is 8 1100LBS and has problems keeping weight on through the winter.

Gracie’s Regimen

Feeding:

Mornings
1 flake Alfalfa
1 flake Hay
½ cup Oil

Night
2 flakes Alfalfa
2 flakes Grass
Vitamin ½ once

Exercise:

1 hour per week on rope
1 hour riding

Post
½ hour two times a week on rope (unless able to ride more then an hour)
½ hour outside of arena and ½ hour inside

Martha in NM
http://www.valverdemorgans.com

mffarmall
Member

Dec 1, 2005, 5:45 PM

Post #9 of 27 (2179 views)
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Re: [justmartha] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Martha, I am looking into getting a Morgan. They are really wonderful horses.

Cowboydoc
Member / Moderator

Dec 23, 2005, 1:43 PM

Post #10 of 27 (2133 views)
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Re: [mffarmall] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Alfalfa DOES NOT harm the kidneys, liver, or anything else. There have been a number of studies that have confirmed this. The most prominent being from the Colorado State University. The only problem with alfalfa is that it tastes so good that horses eat it faster than grass hay. But it has no ill effects. It will also put weight on a horse faster so that is another reason people don't feed it. Overall you can't find a much better feed than alfalfa.

The reason to use grain is because you can't get enough calories and protein to the horse. If your horse is not ridden hard and is in good flesh I'd cut out the grain altogether.

Mark4510
Silver Member

Dec 23, 2005, 3:13 PM

Post #11 of 27 (2132 views)
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Re: [Cowboydoc] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree with Cowboydoc and I would just add a few other things regarding feeds. Horses that need to consume a lot of calories generally are better off if they can consume those calories over the entire day. There is a significant risk to Colic(esp impaction colic) if they eat too fast and dont drink while they eat.

Additionally, mixing in other feeds such as grain can compound this as horses generally consume those completely before other feeds. See how your horses eat and how they manage the feed as individuals. If you have one that wolfs thier food I might restrict the large feedings and try to feed more frequently.

Regards,
Mark

Jenifae
Member

Jan 5, 2006, 12:50 AM

Post #12 of 27 (2107 views)
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Re: [Mark4510] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

I really enjoyed reading everyones thoughts and ways of feeding. I dont feed as much as anyone else here, I think. Although flake size can very as Martha said. I live in California and alfalfa is very prevelant here. However, I have a BLM mustang who tends to be fat and a Morgan (I'm pretty sure) that also, tends to be fat. I have Quarter Horse mix who can be high strung and is thin. So, I found that a 1/2 flake of alfalfa and 1/2 flake bermuda seems to work for all of them. I give them 4-way grain with vitamens and flax and the Quarter horse gets rice bran with it and that helps keep her weight up without that edgyness.

With Love and Patience you get alot more done.

Mark4510
Silver Member

Jan 5, 2006, 2:55 PM

Post #13 of 27 (2096 views)
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Re: [Jenifae] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jennifer, do you ride your mustang? How old? Mare/Gelding? Shoes or barefoot?

Where was it adapted out of?

Regards,
Mark

Jenifae
Member

Jan 5, 2006, 9:40 PM

Post #14 of 27 (2091 views)
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Re: [Mark4510] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Mark,
Well, he's about 16 y/o, gelding. I bought him off a mexican guy His BLM brand is too blury to see where he came from but, just the the he looks I'd say Nevada. Just guessing though. He is shoes right now but, I plan on going barefoot with all my horses through the AANHCP I found a trimmer in Southern California so, that should be kewl. He is the best little horse I'll tell. Truely wonderful. I love him. Do you have Mustangs?

With Love and Patience you get alot more done.

mffarmall
Member

Jan 6, 2006, 1:05 PM

Post #15 of 27 (2084 views)
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Re: [Jenifae] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have (slowly) taken her off of grain and only give her alfalfa and grass. But I do give a mineral and vitamin. I also changed her to a once every four months dewormer. We have such dry air that worms are not as much of a problem. And I really think that she is calmer. She seemed to get hot headed on the grain. I have heard of this in some horses. It might be her problem too. But anyway she is doing great and she has much more success with plumping out the grass.

Mark4510
Silver Member

Jan 6, 2006, 1:20 PM

Post #16 of 27 (2083 views)
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Re: [Jenifae] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

No Mustangs. Just Quarter Horses.

I have seen a few and they seem to make great trail horses and are generally super good minded. We don’t have time to get involved in that although there is something cool about Mustangs. I am pretty sure I don’t have the skills to get one started but if I had the time, I would try to attend a Bryan Neubert clinic on Mustangs. He is handy with all horses but has an especially good reputation for working with Mustangs. Actually, his whole family is pretty handy with horses.

Regards,
Mark

Jenifae
Member

Jan 6, 2006, 11:08 PM

Post #17 of 27 (2070 views)
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Re: [Mark4510] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's kewl. I hadn't heard of him. Does he have a website? I really like Clinton Anderson. I think he is direct and clear in with how he teaches.

With Love and Patience you get alot more done.

Mark4510
Silver Member

Jan 9, 2006, 4:19 PM

Post #18 of 27 (2056 views)
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Re: [Jenifae] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Clinton is energetic and has done a good job of getting his message out. IMHO he is the first of the general clinicians move it past the elementary level and to something that almost all good performance horse trainers do day in and day out.

I guess I met Clinton about 6+ years ago when he was just getting started in the Clinician thing. He worked for a local trainer and decided he could make more money doing clinics. He has certainly learned a lot in that time and it’s nice to see his program to change as he has learned more.

Having said that, there are a few clinician’s or trainers that go beyond that in their knowledge of the horse in general. Ray Hunt, Bryan Neubert, Benny Guitron and the Dorrance brothers are a few of the greats. These folks have years of knowledge about horses that separate them by a huge margin between the average clinicians. I am certainly not taking anything away from other clinicians but if I had a horse I needed help with I would rely on the expertise of these folks.

Beyond that, I think Bryan has done a great job understanding some of the differences that Mustangs bring to the table. If you can get sometime with him at his place I would recommend it. Personally I like the Alturas area of CA.

If you have any pics of your mustang it would be neat to see them.

Regards,
Mark

Cowboydoc
Member / Moderator

Jan 9, 2006, 5:40 PM

Post #19 of 27 (2055 views)
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Re: [Mark4510] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

"IMHO he is the first of the general clinicians move it past the elementary level and to something that almost all good performance horse trainers do day in and day out."

Mark you are exactly right!! I have never understood why you need to take 500 steps just to get on a horse, LOL! I do like Clinton in that he just uses the roundpen to get on the horse nothing fancy. Then he goes on to what horse training is really all about, GETTING ONE TRAINED TO RIDE!! Leads, circles, stops, sidepasses, flexion, extension, collection, etc. etc. Tricks are nice but you can't ride a trick.

When my oldest was four people were going on and on about how great a certain trainer was that was coming to town. I said my four year old could do what he does. They said no way this guy talks to the horses, blah blah blah. To make a long story short about ten of them met me at my house with a two year they thought would kill us. In 15 minutes and without the horse breaking a sweat my daughter had him following her all over the pen. Smile

It's not magic folks it's just a few simple steps.

Another thing I NEVER understood with these guys and how people think it's so great. Would you ever, even on your worst day, take an unbroke, out of shape 2 year old and run them in a pen for an hour or more until they were dripping wet? Just think about the possibility for damage to the joints on that horse. These guys are supposed to be such great horsemen and then they put the horse at risk like that. Unsure

Jenifae
Member

Jan 10, 2006, 1:41 AM

Post #20 of 27 (2044 views)
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Re: [Mark4510] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sure, His name is Marcus.
Does this Bryan have a website I could go to?

With Love and Patience you get alot more done.

Jenifae
Member

Jan 10, 2006, 1:49 AM

Post #21 of 27 (2042 views)
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Re: [Jenifae] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Let me try sending this again.

<img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d167/Jenifae/Marcus2.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

With Love and Patience you get alot more done.

Jenifae
Member

Jan 10, 2006, 1:50 AM

Post #22 of 27 (2041 views)
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Re: [Jenifae] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

How do you upload a picture? First I tried the attachement thing and it didnt work. Then I tried to send it from another site to no avail. HELP!

With Love and Patience you get alot more done.

Mark4510
Silver Member

Jan 10, 2006, 12:50 PM

Post #23 of 27 (2037 views)
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Re: [Jenifae] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jennifer, Sorry about that. http://www.bryanneubert.com/

An interesting aside about Bryan is that not only is he a great horseman and one that has great insights into how to help a wild horse get "Broke" but his kids are great hands. Each one of them in their own right is doing well with horses. I don’t recall how they ended up at last years Snaffle Bit show but they tend to always do very well. What’s really cool is that there is a whole crop of great trainers/showman that are breaking from the really hard handed, rough ways and getting great results at world class shows. Bryans kids are in this camp, David Hanson is that way and a ton of great Non Pros are. Folks like John McCarty always do well in the reining and cow horse classes and is very good with his horses.

Richard,

This is the part of the clinician/trainer conversation that always gets sort of odd for me. I sure don’t know Ray like you do, so maybe you have heard him talk about this. To me, at some level the folks that are true horseman really can’t get a very big public following because they are truly interested in helping the horse. To do that they need to make sure that the horse is safe and the human gets educated and that can only really happen in very small groups or 1 on 1.

So here is the overarching question…..do TV trainers such as Clinton, Willhelm, Lynon, Parelli do more harm or good for people looking to learn more about their horses?

Regards,
Mark

Jenifae
Member

Jan 11, 2006, 12:07 PM

Post #24 of 27 (2022 views)
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Re: [Jenifae] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hopefully a pic of Marcus the Mustang

With Love and Patience you get alot more done.

Mark4510
Silver Member

Jan 11, 2006, 5:50 PM

Post #25 of 27 (2015 views)
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Re: [Jenifae] Grass or Hay [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thats great. He seems put together pretty well and, although I might be wrong, it looks like he has that "hey, is that a carrot in your hand?" look on his face.

It's nice to see Mustangs go to good homes.

Mark

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