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Starting from Scratch and Looking for Ideas

sparky2terra
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Jul 30, 2006, 11:56 AM

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Starting from Scratch and Looking for Ideas	Can't Post

Greetings and Salutations!

This is my first post to any of the "ByNet" sites. I've been a long-time lurker, but now it's time for me to tap into the wonderful resources that are available here.

I have about 35 acres of RAW land on an east-west rectangular lot with a road on the east side. It is treeless, relatively flat for the front 10 acres (square), slightly sloped-upward on the next 5 acres, and quite sloped-upward on the remainder unusable portion. The plan is to place a drive from the road along the northern boundary, curve south between the 10 and 5 acre portions, and have it curve up the slope to a building site for my home. On the square 10 acre portion near the road, I plan to build a barn, corral, and pasture area ... and then have about four horses. The beauty of all of this is that I have the luxury of laying-out and designing everything from scratch ... from fencing material, to barn and corral design, to pasture partitioning and grasses, drainage, and even the equipment (i.e. tractors, trucks).

I would love to tap into the wealth of experience from this group and find out what wisdom gained from experience could be shared with me and with the group. If you were to design the perfect equestrian farm, what would you do?

Sparky

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LandIdeas.ppt (13.5 KB)

Mark4510
Silver Member

Aug 3, 2006, 7:09 PM

Post #2 of 7 (947 views)
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Re: [sparky2terra] Starting from Scratch and Looking for Ideas [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sparky,
First of all welcome to our community.

I suspect you will get a lot of feedback based on people opinions and experiences.

You are fortunate that you get to start with a clean slate and are not going to inherit any ones problems or bad ideas. Having said that I would think in terms of economy of effort. The easier it is to take care of the horses the more time to do other things. Think about:
1. setting up the barn so you block as much of the prevailing winter weather as you can.
2. set up the barn so you can drive the trailer close to it for loading and unloading. If you think about what you want it to be like in the worst weather thats a start.
3. How are you going to store feed? Although we now keep our feed in the barn with the horses its not a great idea due to fire. Keep it outside the barn but close enough to take into the horses daily.
4. How are you going to manage manure?
5. gate placement for getting into and out of pastures
6. more than one pasture so one can 'rest' while the other is being grazed on?
7. Vinyl fences? I have pretty strong feelings about vinyl for horse use but see what works for you.
8. setting up water so horses dont provide you with a flood after breaking off a faucet.

Maybe thats a start so I will let others jump in.

Regards,
Mark

sparky2terra
New Member

Aug 4, 2006, 11:03 AM

Post #3 of 7 (943 views)
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Re: [Mark4510] Starting from Scratch and Looking for Ideas [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks, Mark. Your feedback is definitely along the lines of what I'm looking for.

I'm truly at the beginning of this terra-project ... in fact, I haven't even closed on the land yet (end of August). I plan to be out there the very next day working.

I am currently in the process of spec'ing needs for a tractor. I want to spec the tractor for all my current needs in cleaning-up and shaping the land ... and future needs for a small equine (4) operation without over-doing it cost-wise. I'm currently looking at the Kubota L5030, and sorting through the TractorByNet forums trying to figure it all out. Not sure how much tractor I may need (i.e PTO HP), but I'm shooting for 45 HP at the PTO and would like a Category II but may be able to get by with a Category I.

The pasture area is really rough with scraggly grass and weeds with scrub-brush scattered around. Have any thoughts on mowing pasture-grass and how often mowing may be needed with on-going maintenance? If often, I want to invest in a bat-wing mower that will require more PTO HP ... plus I don't want to spend all weekend mowing 10 acres with a 6' mower. Then again, the horses may glare at me if I mow their precious grass.

One of the first things that I have to take care of on the land is removal and disposal of two existing ~650 foot sections of barbed-wire fencing. I plan to remove/discard the wire, keep the interleaved T-posts, and re-use the large wooden-posts for future landscaping timbers. Hopefully, I'll have a tractor by then to pull-out existing posts.

Regarding your feedback:
1. Having an idea of where I want the barn, I plan to check weather patterns/directions over the course of this winter and spring. I don't want the barn to become a wind-tunnel.
2. The drive to the house will ultimately fork off to the barn with ample space to turn and load critters.
3. I haven't though this far ahead. Do you typically keep the feed in a small shed near the barn?
4. Since the pasture-soil appears to have a lot of clay and the grass is quite yellow, I was going to spread manure around to start getting some nutrients into it for healthier pasture-grass. I suppose this means that I�ll need to have the horses on a regular parasite-protection plan.
5. Yeah, I'll need to figure this one out.
6. This is the plan, and I've been trying to figure out the best way of laying things out so everyone (the horses) will be happy.
7. Since fencing is one of the first things that I'll need to take care of, I sure would like your feedback here. Strong feelings about vinyl for horse use? Well, that's what I want to see/hear. Lay it on me.
8. Yeah. I'll need to figure this one out when the time comes.

I am, by no means, an expert on horses; however, I only want to do what is right by them. I'll do my best to post some photos of the pasture area to give you an idea of what I'm dealing with.

I love this!
Sparky

Sparky

Mark4510
Silver Member

Aug 4, 2006, 5:38 PM

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Re: [sparky2terra] Starting from Scratch and Looking for Ideas [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am envious of your situation. Nothing bad about it for sure.

I think you approach to the tractor is about right. I have a little 40 horse JD that I love. I use it mostly for dragging the arena, moving manure and maintaining the gravel roads. I have to admit that I use it pretty hard for other things like removing trees and tree stumps as well as moving dirt around. I have settled into using the tractor for most things and renting something bigger (usually a CAT in the d-5 range). I looked at the Kubota and although they were a bit less than the JD upfront the service and parts availability after the fact has been a real win. It seems like I can get almost anything I need for my JD from NAPA!

Barbwire is the worst possible horse fence so good for you for getting rid of it. Somewhere on TBN I wrote out my thoughts on fencing preferences and why. Maybe its still in the archives but here is my quick take on it from Best to Worst.

Welded 5� high 5 rail steel pipe fence with good quality no climb on the inside with a hot wire top and bottom. Horses generally will bounce off it if they run into it, they can see it, they cant run through it, its hard for rustlers to get through it (I know�..most people think rustling never happens. Check with your local ag or brand inspector. It happens a lot more than most folks think), weather does not really impact it and once its up its pretty maintenance free.
Welded 5� high being the same as above without the multiple rails. Almost all the same reasons but less money.
Wood fence with no climb. Not as durable, splinters can hurt the horses. They can chew on it. It rots and burns. Easy to cut through.
tpost. Easy to topple over on long runs. Horses tend to hurt themselves on the t post tops. (if you are going to use t posts put a blob of construction adhesive in the correct size PVC cap and put in over the top of the post.
Vinyl looks nice but it pops out when leaned on and melts with even the smallest fire. In the west that is a real issue. Even with hot wire I have seen horses run through it
Tapes, wires etc. Not bad but the tapes don�t hold up well. The LA Equestrian center put it up a few years back at the demand of the resident boarders. Despite lots of maintenance it is simply falling apart that the companies have stopped warranty work on it.
Barb wire. Don�t use it.

If I could set up feed storage anyway I wanted I would set up a drive in steel building with a slab floor. This would allow me to buy a lot of feed when the prices are cheapest and the quality is the best. In mid summer we can get good CA or NV alfalfa for almost half of what we pay in the winter. I would buy enough to try to get me through the winter and the feed quality would be consistent. I would take a few samples and send them off to Nutrena for free analysis. They would tell me, based on the make of the feed, what supplements I would need. Then I get the feed for less and don�t have to worry about the nutritional make up changing every few weeks when I buy more feed.

I would set up a smaller close feed room with my supplements and bag feed along with maybe 6 bails of feed that is close to the barn so I don�t have to move it too far in the rain. Generally if you have a feed cart or a ATV and trailer you can do it that way.

For manure you should decide if you are going to spread it on your pastures or not. There are good reasons on both sides. I let ours compost for a while and then spread it. We have a lot of clay and it sure makes the pastures better after a few years. I would build a 3 sided box out of cinder block where I could dump it in with a wheelbarrow and then take it out with a tractor. If you spread manure directly on to the ground any parasites the horses have will go from the manure, into the ground and back to the horses when they graze. Let it compost to kill the parasites.

You might take some time to visit larger horse facilities and see how they do it. Also ask them to tell you what they would do differently.

Do you think fire is an issue in your area? If so set it up so you have a perimeter that you can keep clean of grass. One thing that works well is to have a graded area where you can lope horses. It serves 2 purposes�.gives you a big open area to exercise them and reduces fire risk.

Keep us up to date�.

Regards,
Mark

sparky2terra
New Member

Aug 12, 2006, 12:46 PM

Post #5 of 7 (915 views)
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Re: [Mark4510] Starting from Scratch and Looking for Ideas [In reply to]	Can't Post

I�m a little shocked at the price of the Kubota 5030 that I�m looking at � using the forums at TractorByNet (TBN) as a guideline. I suspect that the local dealers are starting off high because I�m just beginning to gauge what I want in a tractor, and will probably come down when I�m about to buy � just to get the business. <shrug> I�m sure I�ll vent on TBN a bit.

Speaking of gauging tractor requirements � with the necessary implements � Given that the pasture is relatively flat, with tall (knee-to-waist) rough grass, weeds, some critter-holes, and sparse ham-sized rocks �AND- that horses will eventually roam the pasture, are there any thoughts on a recommended type of mower? I could get a rotary bush-hog type to drag around behind the tractor and knock-down everything; however, this may be over-kill since there is very little in the pasture thicker than a half-inch in diameter. What is there, I plan to rip out myself, fill holes, and remove as many rocks as I can � once I can see/find them. Would a flail-mower be more practical? The rotary will get damaged by rocks, but I'd suspect flail-mowers are more expensive. What kind of mowing heights should I be looking at?

Regarding the fence-ratings � in general, I tend to agree, but have the following comments/questions/concerns:
1 and 2) I like the steel pipe fences and can easily see how that is the way to go; however, I am concerned about the on-going maintenance (that you mention is relatively non-existent). For instance, won�t trimming around the fence lead to scratches which leads to paint peeling which leads to rust? I really want to minimize maintenance. Despite the durability, I haven�t really looked into steel pipe for this reason.
3) Again, wouldn�t the maintenance be an issue?
4) Don�t think I�d consider t-posts. My wife and I would prefer something that appears permanent and is aesthetically pleasing to the eye.
5) There are a LOT of large horse-properties in the area with plenty of vinyl fences � and that is an under-statement. It�s attractive and relatively maintenance-free. It�s clearly popular, but have been hearing about the rails popping out from other people as well. I�ve pointed out horses with �the-grass-is-greener� syndrome to my wife a number of times. I�m surprised that the vinyl-fencing industry has not resolved this issue yet.
6) My future neighbor has wood-posts with wires. It�s clean and appears to be professionally done.
7) Ugh! What I have with regards to barbed-wire will be the first thing to go once the land is in my name. That�s what I think of it.

I�m still trying to figure out the fencing ... but I'm in no rush. I'm the kind of person that will take a long time to make a decision because I over-analyze everything in an effort to make the "right" decision.

I�m not opposed to having a separate building for feed. You mentioned that this is a good idea for fire-hazard reasons. My question is � why would there be any more of a fire-hazard with feed in the barn than in a separate building? If there is any potential for fire anywhere on my property, I want to make sure that I�m aware of it and to minimize it ... what-ever it takes. I do like the idea of stocking up on feed when the prices are low.

I was recently reading an article about how to handle the manure:
http://www.equisearch.com/advice/how_to/eqmanure912/index.html
I will probably do the same as you � compost and spread. I have clay-soil as well and am eager to convert it into something more rich so better/healthier pasture-grass will grow. Plus, we want to plant some trees on our tree-less chunk of property.

Regarding fire in the area � this is northern Colorado � the high-dessert � and fire is an issue. I plan to maintain a trim green yard around the house and buildings and do what I can to minimize any threats. I still need to go talk to the local fire-department to see if they have any specific recommendations. Your idea of a graded area for loping is a great one � and I�ll plan for that.

Sparky

Mark4510
Silver Member

Aug 13, 2006, 4:55 PM

Post #6 of 7 (904 views)
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Re: [sparky2terra] Starting from Scratch and Looking for Ideas [In reply to]	Can't Post

I dare not wade into the deep water regarding tractors��. :^)

In terms of a mower I think that has to do with your other needs for mowing, your goals on the pasture and what you can afford. I have used both and for general purpose I think I would go with a rotary mower. In terms of the pasture we tend to rip or disk it a number of times to break up all the small vegetation as well as bring rocks to the surface. Once that is pretty well do the shavings/manure option, fertilize, spread pasture seed and let it go as long as water is around.

There is not a lot more risk to having a fire start in a barn with feed in it than a storage barn unless you have open flames or a number of electrical items. The risk comes that if you start a fire in a hay barn no horses are there. The other thing is that feed tends to attract rodents and other creatures. I would prefer to keep those to a minimum in the barn. Keeping possums out of horse feed is critical. Having a slab floor or moisture resistant floor for feed is a good idea so you don�t spoil the bottom bales.

So back to the fencing options�..the reality is there is no perfect man made fence. That being said, I set my priorities like this: 1.Horse safety 2. Horse security 3. Maintenance 4. Looks

I am not going to say what others have is wrong. Maybe it works for them and maybe there are regional reasons that make one type of fence better than others. I also think there a lot of people that are new to the more rural lifestyle and finding good resources on things like fencing can be hard. Its easy these days to sell vinyl and other types of fencing compared to steel whos interest does the salesman have at heart?

I really think that a multi railed fence is the safest and most secure for a horse. I know some may argue that some of the rope and tape fences do a better job but I am not sure I agree with all the rational behind the arguments. So lets look at maintenance. Good pipe in the ground will last longer than most woods, wont burn or melt, wont be cracked by the cold and wont sag. When horses with the �green as grass� syndrome test it, and they always do, the vinyl will pop out, bend or break. The colder it gets the easier it breaks. If you have ever seen the smallest of grass fires run under a vinyl fence you know it melts like butter.

Some will say you can help avoid horses testing a vinyl fence by running a hot wire and that is true. However, this requires that you don�t let the hot wire get grounded by tall grass etc. Additionally, horses can and do run through vinyl fences, when frightened, regardless of the hot wire. To be fair to vinyl fences you can do things to improve the safety factor. If you run a hot wire and no climb along the inside that will help. If you fill the posts with concrete (not just setting them in concrete but filling them up) that will help. However, its hard to keep the rails from popping out. One of our local big money guys has almost 400 acres in vinyl fencing and I admit it looks really nice in the spring when you see all that green grass, blue sky filled with puffball clouds and mares and babies enjoying the first warm days of spring. However, he generally only puts horses in the inner pastures which means each pasture with a horse in it has another pasture and fence between it and a road. I have never seen them leave horses out all night in one of those pastures and he has a resident trainer, a breeding manager, a ranch foreman and all the helpers there watching over his animals. He really likes the way it looks and is willing to accept the risks even though he has already had the fences broken down and suffered the related losses.

I freely admit that I think there is something really cool about a well made 5 � high 5 rail welded pipe fence that has never been painted and is rusted. I see those fences around Ca that have been here 40 years and unless they get bulldozed for houses they will likely be here and strong after I am gone. Another option would be to buy fence panels and put a post in between each panel. Those work well and are less money per foot.

Some of my friends on TBN, CBN and HBN have shared with me that sometimes I share my opinions too strongly. So let me say that I don�t mean to offend anyone and I am sharing what I think is best for the horse. I am not a hand like so many around us. We are fortunate to have people like Benny Guitron, David Hanson, Teddy Robinson, Ray Hunt, Bryan Neubert and others in our area that are truly savvy. I feel fortunate when they take time to share some hard earned wisdom and its in that spirit of sharing that I mention the above. You are certainly on the right track and its commendable you are investing this much time in research. Just keep asking questions of those folks that have been horseman in your area for a while.

Regards,
Mark

2manyhorses
New Member

Aug 25, 2006, 11:17 AM

Post #7 of 7 (848 views)
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Re: [sparky2terra] Starting from Scratch and Looking for Ideas [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,
I'm new here too, but wanted to share my barn experience. We had a run-in shed for two years until we decided exactly what we wanted. We finished the barn in '03 and I love it! Nothing fancy, four stalls, center aisle (large enough to drive the tractor or truck through), separate locking tack room, wash stall and loft. All floors are concrete, with Frelonic interlocking mats in the four stalls. Each stall has electrical outlets outside and above the grilles for box fans during the summer. The tack room is heated (small electric baseboard) and has a sink, small refrigerator and water heater. Didn't bother with phone lines as we all use cells. The fire hazzard comes from hay storage, not the feed. We weighed the luxury of hay storage directly overhead (drop hay from the loft into wall mounted hay racks in each stall) vs. the potential fire hazzard and opted for the loft since we can see the barn from the house and we rarely confine the horses unless we are present and working with them. As far as the feed, we have 2 large, locking bins in the aisle that are very strong (a bear got in, couldn't open them and was so angry he threw them out of the barn!) and we feed in the stalls so we are sure of what and how much everyone eats. Also makes it easy when we get home with feed bags, just drive in and dump them in the bins. We have no rodent issues at all. Our 2 barn cats are mousers extrordinaire and enjoy the heated tack room (kitty door for access) in the winter.
We have board fencing and really are satisfied with it. Depends on the horses you have too, Drafts can lean on boards and pop them off with ease, vinyl would NOT work with a leaning Draft, also cribbers love wood and would probably lay off the wire fencing. However, with our zero-radius mower, I can mow under the board fences in the immediate barn area and that reduces the hours spent with the weed eater, can't mow under wire and weed control becomes an issue. I also happen to like the look of board fencing.
Didn't see a mention of water access in your post. We are switching to a heated Nelson waterer for the upper paddock (lower has a 12 mo. stream). Currently have a Behlens "Freedom Fountain" and it is probably the most poorly engineered piece of garbage ever made. Don't get me wrong, Behlens has some great products, but not these...impossible to clean and turn off in the event of a leak, yup, it leaks too.
One more thing before I end this tome, while you don't want a wind tunnel in the winter, a nice breeze down the aisle surely feels good in the summer. We have large doors at either end we can close in cold weather.
Best of luck, have fun,and remember...just because you only have 4 stalls doesn't mean you have to limit yourself to 4 horses! Smile

Joan

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